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Race, Respect, and Keeping the Dialogue Alive
Hip-Hop Artist Talib Kweli with his father, Dr. Perry Greene
By JLove

Talib Kweli rocks superstar sunglasses while slinging urban afrocentric knowledge on a beautiful day in Brooklyn. His father, Dr. Perry Greene, a Professor and Dean at Adelphi University in Long Island, is poised and present, complimenting Talib’s flow with deep wisdom emanating not just from his intellect but his soul. We dip in and out of history, family, legacy, and life.

JLove: I would love for you guys to talk about is the history of Hip-Hop and where is it now in terms of race.

Perry: I think that Hip-Hop has two faces, and I’m talking relatively as a person that is an outsider. I’m reminded of the birth of minstrel in the 1830s. Black performers weren’t allowed on the stage. So white performers who wanted to pretend to be black, would put on blackface. What’s interesting in that historical context is the minstrel shows were developed as a parody of slaves on the auction block. Fast forward to 2008 and for some- if they’re attending to one face of Hip-Hop-it’s not different than the minstrel show in some ways. But as I said before, there are two faces. There is the face that is born of materialism, of money, and of violence. And there is the face of anti-violence, grassroots, activism, and positive energy. Which face is the true face of Hip-Hop? The true face of Hip-Hop is the second one because it started out as an anti-gang, anti-violence, anti-drug movement in the South Bronx—a South Bronx that had been left to die. And so those people who choose to only pay attention to that first face and then pick up and put on the metaphorical blackface are doing harm to the culture. Those who honor it…white or black…are of a positive influence.

Talib: To add to your point about the minstrel show, I think now people embrace what they think is blackness. But I think what they think is blackness is different. Like the idea to embrace America’s idea of what black is. So people are proud to be black but, it’s seems like it’s proud for the wrong reasons. The historical context isn’t there, the knowledge isn’t there. Being black means being hip. Or embracing a stereotype. I think that’s where you get the minstrel-show thing where it’s, like, we don’t need white people. We do it ourselves.

JLove: I want to come back to talking about cultural appropriation. How do you feel about white people in hip-hop?

Talib: Well, I would say that I grew up inherently nationalistic. I truly believe that any group of people—black, Irish, Russian—you have to work out the problems in your own family. And you can’t appreciate somebody else’s culture unless you have a full appreciation of your own culture. Hip-Hop is the first thing I’ve seen in my lifetime that is truly multi-cultural. So I come from a nationalist ideology but I participate in this multi-cultural thing. It conflicts sometimes. There are white people that have been down with Hip-Hop from the beginning; white people now who are artists, producers, and business people in Hip-Hop who truly have the love for the culture and for the music. I would never say that, because Hip-Hop was started by Blacks and Latinos in the Bronx, it’s just for us. But at the same time when you’re dealing with the real issue of racism, that same white kid that grew up in Massachusetts, and who took the Metro North down to go to clubs…he’s probably, you know, president of some label or some big A&R making hundreds of thousands of dollars. Whereas, his good friend is trying to make a demo tape or something. So the racism is real whether someone has a love for the culture or not. And that’s just the reality of racism in this country. I know people who, when I started my business, they were doing the same thing as me and they are making way more money than I am.

JLove: Because they’re white?

Talib: Because they’re white. And because there’s more opportunities for them just in general…this is an issue people don’t really, truly understand. I don’t hear people talking about white power. I don’t hear black people talking about white privilege.

JLove: Well, Perry, what do you think about this? What do you think about what Talib is saying?

Perry: If all things were equal? I’d have absolutely no problem, anybody doing anybody else’s music. It’s a beautiful thing.

JLove: But the problem is it’s not all equal, right?

Perry: Well, you can’t help but be a little burned by history. When you think about Elvis Presley, you don’t think about Big Momma Thornton. And what I’m saying is…there’s nothing wrong with Elvis Presley, but I want them to know that his momma—musically speaking—was a black woman named Big Momma Thornton, where he got many of his lyrics, many of his songs. You go to some places and you start talking about rock and roll and some people go, ‘Oh- that’s white folks music. ‘ Before Elvis, it was race music. And in less polite circles it was nigger music. When you think about jazz—something I’m very fond of—and, frankly, it is sad that you go where jazz artists are singing and performing and playing, and it’s getting harder and harder to find black musicians. And you ask yourself, ‘Well, what’s wrong with this picture?’ There needs to be black artists and white artists. But we’re coming to a point where they are far and few between. I was actually at the Blue Note a couple of weeks ago. And I noted there was one black performer and no one working in the Blue Note was Black, serving the food, greeting people as they came in. And I can’t help thinking, looking at the walls, seeing all of the jazz artists of the past, this place was built on the artistry of these men and women. Where are they now? And so I think what goes on in this country is this transformation founded on, unfortunately, race and some of that unconscious racism, that we talked about earlier, that says it’s either all mine or it’s nobody’s. And in that, I have a problem.

JLove: So what is important for white people to know when engaging in cultures and music and art that is from indigenous folks or people of color?

Talib: I think Eminem has written the best song about this particular issues that I’ve ever heard. That song, “White America,” is a song about the idea that he’s accepted and he has success because he does black music and brings it to white kids. And how white kids relate to him because his hair is blonde. This song is the most honest piece of work that I’ve heard about this issue. And I think it had to come from a white person to really address that issue. I love that record. But I think he’s in a position where he, as an artist, can be completely honest where most people can’t be completely honest… Right now there’s a discussion on the website about reparations in the ‘Ask Talib’ section. The talk is ‘should black people get reparations?’ And one German kid is like, ‘Hey, you know, I’m in Germany. And Germany treated the Jews real messed up but I didn’t treat the Jews messed up, so I don’t feel any responsibility for it.’ Then everybody responded and said, ‘No, you live a certain life. They way that you live is based on what was set up for you. And you have to take some sort of responsibility for that.’ The biggest obstacle is the first thing we learn in elementary school—the idea of the melting pot. Which is the biggest obstacle because that’s the get out of jail free pass: ‘Hey, this is America. This is a melting pot.’ You’re supposed to come to Ellis Island, forget whatever it is you were dealing with before you got there—brand new identity. Well, that works if you’re there on your own free will. Or even if your country was so messed up that you made a choice to leave the country and seek opportunity here. That doesn’t happen for Africans. And so there’s a privilege that other people in this country have that we just don’t have.

JLove: I would push back on that a little bit in terms of the Ellis Island conversation, though, because…I don’t know if you guys have heard of Tim Wise. He talks about his family are immigrants that came over and Ellis Island and was forced to give up their culture in order to succeed. For many white people they feel an emptiness, a cultural void. So how do we look at white people and our constant need for them to take other people’s stuff because we have nothing of our own? Perry, what do you think?

Perry: What’s interesting is that a critical look at histories will see that there are a lot of similarities. There is, in America, for instance, a big backlash against Hispanic folk; whether we’re talking about language acquisition, bilingualism, socio-economic status, you can look, particularly at the Italians, the Irish, at Jews and see that they were treated very similarly to the way that we are treating the Hispanics today. And so, when you look at it that way, American culture is, in fact, that treatment. That kind of historical Ground Hog day that is going on. The interesting thing about African Americans and our involuntary status is we really haven’t been part of that ebb and flow. We have been fairly static. We have been a permanent underclass. And the reason for that is we started out as a product of guilt. I don’t mean as a people but our role in America. Because America couldn’t deal with the notion that- this is before the beginnings of a United States- that they were enslaving people for the rest of their lives. So they had to define those people as not human. And I want to argue that that original sin is with us today. That definition of who Black people are- that’s American culture. Often not very pretty but, our historical roots are part of our culture. What we did frames who we are. And so if, as America, we did those things- and we did- it is, at least in part, who we are today.

JLove: So we’re coming to the end. As part of this project, I’m doing questions from the community. So I have some folks that have some questions for you guys. One of my best friends, Asia-One, in L.A., she’s a B-Girl and graffiti artist. She asked, ‘Why, in Hip-Hop, if you have skills it doesn’t matter what race you are but in regular society race is such a big thing? What can we learn from what hip-hop has taught us? How would you respond to Asia-One’s comments?

Talib: In society if you’re not white, in order to make it you have to be more skilled. I would venture to say that for hip-hop it’s the reverse. I would say that for someone, like an Eminem, is successful because at the time he came out he was better than almost anybody. And that was the only way that we could accept a white rapper. You gotta be better than everybody. That’s the only way.

Perry: I think Talib is absolutely right. I don’t know if Hip-Hop has rid itself of the divisions and divisiveness that affect the larger society. But I do think it has a better chance than the Republican party.

JLove: Thank you. Artist/activist Chelsea Gregory has a question. “What role would you like to see white, anti-racists Hip-Hop heads fulfill in Hip-Hop communities around the world?

Talib: I think if you’re adding all those prefixes to your title, you might be thinking too deep about it. I think it’s ok to be yourself and to know right from wrong. If you have respect for people you don’t have to describe yourself as anti-racist. People just see it. And…as far as the music… I know what it takes for a white person to be accepted in the Black community or to be accepted as ‘down’ with a black art form. The ingredients center around respect, and being educated about the culture.

JLove: Final Comments?

Perry: I think there are many aspects of our society that are having a very slow motion sigh of relief. And the sigh of relief is this: ‘Oh, they’re not paying attention anymore.’ What’s worrisome about that is, as long as in places, like New York City, there’s 50% unemployment among Black men, where Black children still die at twice the rate at birth as white children; as long as in some parts of the country where there are Black and Latino children who remain two or three years behind their white counterparts; as long as there are people directed into what communities they can and cannot live in and what loans they can get and what small business protection they get; as long as there are Katrinas, as long as we are willing to suspend the rights of young Black men in the streets all across America just because they’re young, Black men; as long as the Rockefeller laws still imprison Black youth at higher rates than their white counterparts. What I ask of those people is- don’t let the conversation die. Because if you let it die, then being arrested for a little bit of crack can get you 20 years; being arrested with a bundle of cocaine can get you a slap on the hand. As long as those kinds of things are still going on, as long as Sean Bells of the world still have fifty bullets shot at them, as long as there’s still racial profiling, if we stop the conversation then we get frozen in time. And Sean Bell becomes ok. So if I had to say something to somebody, it would be- don’t stop…We have to have the conversation until the game is over. And the game’s not over until America comes to terms with its past. And it hasn’t.

JLove: Thank you for that was a beautiful interview.

Copyright Love-N-Liberation Press, ‘Til the White Day is Done
JLove Calderon, 2010

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